Subj:	TRAVELLER digest 326
Date:	95-06-23 21:49:56 EDT
From:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com

From:	traveller@mpgn.com
Sender:	traveller@mpgn.com
Reply-to:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com (Multiple recipients of list)
			    TRAVELLER Digest 326

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 325 
	by George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
  2) Re: Tl*50 Rule
	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  3) IRC
	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  4) RE: req: alternative combat systems 
	by That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
  5) RE: Arbitrary limitations 
	by That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
  6) TL9 Mass Drivers
	by JBudovec@aol.com
  7) Ship Crews
	by goldendj@deltanet.com (David J. Golden)
  8) Tractor Rifles and TNE gravitics
	by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  9) apoligys again
	by cs5025@wlv.ac.uk (L.T.Bryant)
 10) RE: Ship Crews 
	by That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
 11) Re: Refs:  What are your science fiction influences?
	by ehenry@magmacom.com (Ethan Henry)
 12) SF Influences
	by "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
 13) Re: Big Lasers
	by bonnevil@flipper.itlabs.umn.edu (Steven Bonneville)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 18:54:17 -0700
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: gherbert@crl.com
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 325 
Message-ID: <199506230154.AA18123@mail.crl.com>


Challenge 77 should be out Real Soon Now, or so a source says...

-george

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Tl*50 Rule
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950622192345.2633B-100000@kelly.teleport.com>

 You could validate it with reality by saying that anything over that 
limit would not be able to use Gravetic focusing because of the limits of 
grav technology on such a fine scale, after all. Grav technology was 
origionaley made to provide gravity for ships and counter out accel, not 
fine manipulation.
 So you can break it if you want with _huge_ lasers, but the range will 
suck on them big time. 
 Makes a good point for spinal-mounted weapons.
 They may not do as much damage, but if you get off hits at 80hexes away 
and they have to close to 40 to hit and you've got equal acceleration. 
It'd be a joke how easily the person who went with the particle 
accelerator(or meson gun) would win.
 So this conforms with Traveller reality, and it helps preserve the feel 
of the old Traveller.
 I like it at least.

bri


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19:29:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: IRC
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950622192902.3153A-100000@kelly.teleport.com>

 I heard from a friend that there was once a Traveller IRC channel, did 
this ever happen and is it ever gonna happen again(or is it still up and 
I just haven't found it yet)?
thanks

bri


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:18:09 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: req: alternative combat systems 
Message-ID: <199506230318.XAA04486@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 22 Jun 1995 17: 02:29 EDT
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:18:08 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

[stuff deleted]
: A while back (like, November) someone posted an article about an 
: use?  I find the CT system excellent, but not detailed enough, the MT
: system just a tad overboard (but my preferred system) and the TNE
: system hopelessly complicated for everyday play without having all
: the weapon effects and characters' to hit chances all figured out in
: advance on little 5" X 8" index cards...
: 
: Any ideas?

Actually, I prefer the TNE combat system.  It's a tad burdensome, yet
very detailed.  It covers eventualities and situations that I will never
run into.  But let me tell you what I really like about it.  No one I
play with wants to deal with it!  Huh.  Well, a five minute combat that
takes about 30 minutes to play out is a tad too much.  So, the people
that I play with roleplay their way out of situations instead of
shooting their way out.  This is great, because when we play the Star
Wars RPG where the combat system isn't as comprehensive or lengthy,
they never hesitate to whip out a weapon, shoot and ask questions much
later.

Oh well, just my warped view. 8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:25:19 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Arbitrary limitations 
Message-ID: <199506230325.XAA04716@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19: 15:14 EDT
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:25:19 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
:  
: >> I haven't seen any 50*TL power output limit on Lasers in FF&S;
: >> someone have a page / rule # citation?
: 
: >There isn't one.  It was a reasonable limitation that was developed on the
: >gdw-beta list.  Without it there are no spinal mounts in the TNE universe.
: Or
: >any other weapons for that matter (not unless the designer is a complete
: idiot).
: 
: Actually, it's an unrealistic, completely arbitrary limitation thrown in
: to try to make TNE look like Classic Trav.  There seems to be two
: schools of thought on the TML: one, represented by you and others, is
: that we should maintain consistancy with the Classic Imperium at all
: costs, and bend the rules to fit.  The other, represented by myself,
: Wildstar, and maybe George Herbert, is to go with the laws of the
: universe as represented by the FF&S design rules, and see what we come
: up with, **even
 
[stuff deleted]

Now I would beg to differ.   I don't think that there is much to do when
it comes to making this stuff compatible with CT.  After all, if that
was the case then we would be moaning and begroaning the loss of
thruster plates and such.  I think that this rule suggestion/limitation
was done in order to allow for some semblance of game balance. 
Granted, why bother.  So what if the spirit of the rules is being
broken by a technicality in the new rules?  It's not like it's the
spirit of the game that we like.  8)
 
       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 00:07:41 -0400
From: JBudovec@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: TL9 Mass Drivers
Message-ID: <950623000511_76540680@aol.com>

Cynthia recently noted:

>"Superfast Magnetic Bearings: Spinning at 36,000 rpm without any lubrication
>or physical contact, a magnetically suspended turbine shaft established a
>rotational speed record for a jet-engine component that "floats". The
magnetic-bearing
>system comprised of microprocessor-controlled electromagnets and sensors was
built
>by SatCon Technology Corp. of Cambridge, Mass. under an Army program to 
>increase turbine-engine efficiency and durability. Further testing aims to
>achieve 50,000 rpm."

>I seem to recall quoting the same magazine a few months back about the work
>U.of Texas is doing for the Army developing Mass Driver cannon -- I seem to
recall >also that said cannon will require a large flywheel HPG and a
HIGH-EFFICIENCY
>DIESEL TURBINE to charge it up... pieces of the same pie, perhaps?

Perhaps, however, the intended purpose of the superfast magnetic bearings is
primarily for jet turbine engines.  Similar research is being conducted for
diesel turbine engines.  Floating magnetic bearings would reduce friction by
approx. 25%, thereby increasing efficiency and durability of the engine.
 Although such bearings could be used in a mass driver, no one has (to my
knowledge) produced an efficient diesel turbine that is capable of generating
the required charge.  In addition, "floaters" become unstable (ie. they
suffer from micrometer wobbles) in the presence of static charges (a charge
acting on a uniform magnetic field produces a perpendicular force to the
field - this causes slight fluctuations in the field and causes the
wobbling.)  Nevertheless, it is interesting...

JBudovec

"It was terribly embarrassing.  She gave birth to a porcupine---backwards."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:26:11 -0700
From: goldendj@deltanet.com (David J. Golden)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Ship Crews
Message-ID: <9506230628.AA10746@deltanet.com>

        Help! I've started trying to create deck plans for my frigate, and I
can't figure out what all those &$#@*^% command crew are doing, and why they
all need to be on the bridge! Does anybody have any suggestions who these
eleven people are? I can see having a captain for any ship much larger than a
scout; once you get a crew up to a few dozen, you need a executive office
(before that you just have one of the crew double as second in command). An
admin clerk-type would probably be useful with the 84 person crew (but why
does he/she need a workstation on the bridge?!). Now what about the remaining
8 people?
        I also don't understand why a ship only needs one pilot and one
astrogator regardless of size. Doesn't anybody have shifts anymore? You
certainly can't keep your pilot on duty 24 hrs a day.

        Here's a few thoughts I've come up with:
        - Department heads. Your chief engineer doesn't actually come under
the engineering crew, but the command crew. Small ships don't really have a
chief engineer (although someone will be in charge down there if there's more
than one), but larger ships need a full-time chief engineer who's more
concerned with running the department than running the engines.
        - Relief pilots, commo officers, sensor operators, etc. All the
positions you'd really like to have manned full-time if you've got a big
enough ship. Thus, the two maneuver crew members called out in the rules are
required for any size ship. Small ships just have to accept the fact the
pilot will only be routinely on duty part of the time. As the ship gets large
enough, you can add extra pilots, etc.
        - Other positions would be XO, admin, legal, etc.

        But I still can't figure out what to do with 28 workstations on the
bridge of a 1000T craft.

        Any inputs on this would be appreciated, as I'd really like to get
these plans finished up and out to people.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                     |         D.GOLDEN@genie.geis.com
  PGP Public Key available        |           goldendj@deltanet.com

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:43:13 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Tractor Rifles and TNE gravitics
Message-ID: <38@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

I have just tried designing a Tractor Rifle, using tractor beams to
accelerate a 
projectile, as suggested by Bri. As small arms weapons they actually turn out
to 
be a bit pathetic compared to TL16 gauss guns. This is mainly because the
length 
and weight of a gauss barrel is independent of the weight of the projectile, 
presumably because the force acting on the projectile is proportional to the 
mass of the projectile. This is not true for Grav Weapons, where a fixed
barrel 
weight and length gives a fixed muzzle energy.
Compare

TL16 Gauss barrel - 6000m/s, 24cm, 750,000m/s/s acceleration, 0.72kg,
   Muzzle Energy anywhere up to 1.1MJ for a 20mm round 

TL16 Tractor barrel - 322m/s, 24cm, 216,000m/s/s acceleration, 0.72kg
   Muzzle Energy fixed at 518.4J (velocity and accel for 0.01kg bullet)

The trouble is that this anti gravity doesn't actually act like gravity, as
it 
gives a fixed force, instead of a fixed acceleration.
Something else I've just noticed - The tractor rifle breaks the law of 
conservation of energy with the greatest of ease. The input energy for the 
tractor rifle above, using a 10g projectile, is only 3J. Work done on the 
projectile is equal to Force times barrel length. The energy required to run
the 
tractor is Force times time. I can see why tractors and repulsors are
presented 
the way they are in FFS, as any alternative rule would have to replace thrust

with rate of change of kinetic energy - messy. However, bearing this in mind,

perhaps tractors should be an alternative technology?

One problem with gravitic weaponry now, is that without reactionless 
thrusters there are going to be problems with conservation of momentum,
pulling 
and pushing with a portable tractor beam is likely to throw the firer all
over 
the place as well.

Bearing the above in mind, here's a rough design for a gravitic weapon.

TL16 Gravitic Bazooka
Weight 57.6kg
Price  Cr11,137
Range  240m (laser sight for manual beam pointing)
Consists of two tractors stuck end to end. The operator points one end 
slightly downwards at the ground/a hill/something big, and the other end is 
aimed at the target. The thrust of the two tractors will cancel out, so the 
operator doesn't get pushed off his feet. The tractor will provide 6 tons
thrust 
for 6 minutes. The rearward facing tractor field is diffuse, so the force is 
spread over a wide area, providing a more secure anchor, but the forward beam
is 
tightly focused.
This device was originally intended for use in demolitions, as the forward
beam 
is capable of bending and collapsing structural members in structures which
it 
is aimed at, but it was soon adopted by armies and terrorists.

Last thought - considering their efficiency - 200 tons thrust/kl, 0.02Mw/ton 
thrust - perhaps you could use vectored repulsor lift to provide thrust for 
aircraft at TL16? It would only work close to a planet's surface (to around 
1000km altitude) but it would be an interesting use of technology. I haven't 
worked out the figures, but it looks like it would be able to replace HEPlaR
and 
Contra Grav with an improvement in performance, and it wouldn't need any 
reaction mass :-). 
-- 
Brendan O'Donovan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 10:04:25 +0100 (BST)
From: cs5025@wlv.ac.uk (L.T.Bryant)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: apoligys again
Message-ID: <m0sP4f3-0003tjC@ccub.wlv.ac.uk>

Hi
	This im afraid is good bye as ive now finished my  degree
and there taking my internet link off me.

HOWEVER 

	Ive  lost  the  info to desubscribe, could  i  please  be
removed from the list.


Thanks for all the 
ideas
flames
designs
corrections
and the good and frendly feel of the news group

Bye 
Lawrence Bryant
-- 
oh rose thou art sick
               the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:58:53 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: Ship Crews 
Message-ID: <199506231358.JAA18606@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Fri, 23 Jun 1995 02: 29:14 EDT
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:58:53 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

:         Help! I've started trying to create deck plans for my frigate, and
I 
can't figure out what all those &$#@*^% command crew are doing, and why they
al
l need to be on the bridge! Does anybody have any suggestions who these
eleven 
people are? I can see having a captain for any ship much larger than a scout;
o
nce you get a crew up to a few dozen, you need a executive office (before
that 
you just have one of the crew double as second in command). An admin
clerk-type
 would probably be useful with the 84 person crew (but why does he/she need a
w
orkstation on the bridge?!). Now what about the remaining 8 people?
:         I also don't understand why a ship only needs one pilot and one
astro
gator regardless of size. Doesn't anybody have shifts anymore? You certainly
ca
n't keep your pilot on duty 24 hrs a day.

[stuff deleted]

Man, I've just been on a posting roll lately!  8)

Anyway, you forget that an astrogator and pilot are basically worthless
once their jobs are done.  Once you enter jumpspace, the astrogator has
nothing to do.  Once you've plotted a course and begun manuevering your
ship in realspace your pilot has nothing to do.  These aren't jobs that
need to be done on a 24hr basis on a starship.  Granted, combat is a
different matter all together, but then again, no one gets to sleep
through that.

Engineering and such can be argued to be a different story on a large
ship.  As for command crew, divide that by three and think of that as
the the crew running the ship at the various three intervals.  That way
you for each shift you have three officers manning the bridge.

All the crew stations that you cited (that's in the deleted part of the
message--sorry), don't necessarily have to be on just the bridge either. 
Remember, there may be a number of console and stations in engineering
as well as others interspersed in labs and whatnot.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 10:13:17 -0400
From: ehenry@magmacom.com (Ethan Henry)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Refs:  What are your science fiction influences?
Message-ID: <199506231413.KAA09516@mag1.magmacom.com>

>     I've got a general question that I want to ask all you Traveller 
>     referees out there:
>     
>     What are your major influences from the realm of science fiction?  
>     Cite films, novels, games or whatever.
>     
>     I have several myself, but I'd be curious to hear everybody else's 
>     before biasing the topic with my own bizarre eclectic mix of 
>     influences.

Anything with gunplay. :) Any cheap detective show.

eg. I was at home last week and and old episode of 'Banachek' (sp?) was on.
He had to go discover how a complete 727 that wasn't in flying condition was
stolen. Substitute a small backwater planet or smaller planet in a more
populated starsystem for the semi-deserted airstrip in Arizona, substitute
some sort of interesting starship for the airplane, get a cast of suspects
written up... *poof* adventure. (If you like detective-type adventures at
least). Too bad I never saw the end, so I don't know how the plane was
stolen after all.

Reading sci-fi books gives you a good idea on how to paint the background in
your universe and other people gave some good reading lists, but as far as
solid plot lines go, heck, a little rubbing, some putty and an alien or two
and that old A-Team episode becomes a passable adventure. I love it when a
plan comes together.

Part of the reason I like this approach is that as a GM, I dislike running
plots ala 'Lensmen' because I just don't dig on universe-wide, sweeping
plots. I also like to work in a good gunfight once in a while.

Ethan
Ethan Henry                                     ehenry@magmacom.com
                                                aj185@freenet.carleton.ca


------------------------------

Date:          Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:54:41 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: SF Influences
Message-ID: <5A0562496F@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote a good list of SF influences 
(been reading my library Derek? ;-) but I'd include the following:

Books:

Gordon Dickson: Wolf and Iron  This is a good post-Collapse novel.  
In this book everything fell apart due to economic forces, not Virus, 
but it is a reasonably good depiction of a Wilds planet.

Larry Niven: Known Space series, Ringworld is part of it, but 
there's also several collections of short stories; a lot of it is out of
print now, 
but there's a wealth of good stuff in there.

H. Beam Piper:...I think I've read Space Viking a thousand times.

Harry Harrison: The first few Stainless Steel Rat books, Bill The 
Galactic hero  These fit well into less than serious games.

Philip K Dick: Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, Stand on
Zanzibar.  These are good for those High Pop, Low to Middle Tech
worlds

Movies:

All the Mad Max movies:  Great Wilds flicks
Bladerunner
Alien, Aliens (aliens 3 was really hokey to my taste)
Hardware Wars: A low budge flick about a killer android. Virus anyone?
Ice Pirates: hilarious, if only for the Space Herpes jokes
Outland: Marshal Dillon (or rather Bond, Marshal Bond ;-) in space, 
but a good depiction of a mining colony, and the hazards of using 
firearms in closed environment.





Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 18:00:53 -0500
From: bonnevil@flipper.itlabs.umn.edu (Steven Bonneville)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Big Lasers
Message-ID: <9506232300.AA06602@natasha.itlabs.umn.edu>

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:

>Any given "spinal" or bay weapon (such as a PA-gun or Meson-gun) can be
>replaced by a laser of the same input energy that delivers more damage
>to the target at greater ranges, and with a smaller, lighter weapon
>that only requires one crewmember to operate it.

Actually, I believe that this is wrong, at least at TL-15.  I recently
posted two spinal mounts of 250-GJ performance, one a laser and the
other a PAWS, both with an effective range of 80 hexes.  It turned out
that the laser had half the raw damage potential of the PAWS at 1.4 
times the price.  The PAWS was marginally smaller, and they had the
same crew requirements -- one crew.  

The laser still had two advantages.  First, the PAWS needed to be 500
meters long.  A weapon with the power requirements of these mounts is
probably battleship class anyway, but it was one drawback.  The more
important laser advantage was that while the PAWS has a penetration of
1/1, this laser had a penetration of 1/400.  This meant that the PAWS
did as much damage as the laser at 70% the cost, to ships with an armor
factor up to half the damage value delivered by the PAWS.  The laser
shone in penetrating heavy armor, in this case over 1250.  This laser
could penetrate up to an armor factor of half a million.

Unless I made some grievous errors, I think that the PAWS weapon may
still be useful in some circumstances.  Meson guns deliver more damage
per unit of energy used to power them in comparison to lasers as well,
but they're large, expensive, and crew-intensive.  Of course, only a
meson screen or force field will stop them. 

Remember too, at over 40 hexes or so, you aren't going to be hitting
much of anything, no matter what your weapons statistics are.  Well,
maybe if you're Grandfather or are aiming at a *planet* or something.
80-hex range is only useful to keep the damage up if you do manage 
an extreme range hit.  

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonn0015@gold.tc.umn.edu>


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 326
***************************


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